Breaking Free: How Jonathan Layton Overcame Pornography for Good

Untitled project from Captivate

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n layton reair of interview -: 6:26:22

And the work that he did through my program. And I want you to hear this interview. I wanted to share this interview with you again, this month, this week, because I really, one, I'm grateful for Jonathan and his willingness to be able to come on and have this conversation, but two, to remind you of what is possible, to remind you of the success that's available and to give you just a simple idea of what.

It looks like to be successful in this process of going from someone who struggles with pornography and coming to a place where no longer do you struggle with pornography and you're part of, you know, uh, maybe a bishopric like Jonathan was or whatever is going on for you, whatever it is that you'd like to achieve in your life, pornography does not have to hold you back.

And that's who Jonathan is. He's a great client. He's a good friend, and I love I love this conversation with him. . And I hope that he will inspire you to take action. So if right now you're thinking, what action should I take? The action you should take is to go and set a consult, meet with me, go to zachspafford.com/workwithme. You can scroll all the way to the bottom and right there, you'll be able to set up a meeting between you and me. You can do it right after you do the listen to this podcast or you can do it right now, but. But do it. Do something. Because if you're stuck, if you're feeling like, well, what's my next step?

What do I do? I want you to see what's possible by listening to Jonathan and then I want you to take action. That's all I want you to do. Then you and I will talk about it and we'll get you to where you want to go. I love you guys and I will talk to you next week.

Hey everybody, and welcome I'm your host, Zach Spafford, and today I have a very special guest. Uh, who's not Darcy. Usually when I say that, everybody's like, Oh, it's Darcy. But today I have a very special guest, a friend of mine, Jonathan Layton, who I worked with, uh, as a coach for, gosh, it feels like it's been, Over a year, right?

It's the before four times. Yeah. Yeah. Pre COVID, I guess we started working together . And it has been a real pleasure and a joy to work with Jonathan, not just because I think of the success that Jonathan has had, but He and I have clicked on a, I think, a personal level to, you know, and, and we get each other in a way that I think is different than, you know, you don't always click that way with every client.

So I've appreciated my conversations with Jonathan, um, and I've asked him to be on the podcast today because I want him to tell his story in a way that allows those of you who have been listening to the podcast to know that there's actually someone out there who's succeeding. And I think that's very, very important.

Um, you know, a lot of times you're in these 12 step meetings, especially if you're a member of the church. I think the first thing that people do is they send you to the 12 steps and then you're like the only one in there with a month of not looking at porn. And, you know, Jonathan, you know, I, I'd love to hear from you, um, how you are doing and what's different now?

Sure. Yeah. And it's interesting you bring that up. Cause I think that's one of the first. When you finally let your heart be broken or let your heart open up, I think it's quickly followed by the idea of like, I'm a failure. Like I'm, I'm the bottom. And, uh, in some ways, like, that can't be any further from the truth.

Um, I, uh, if anything, I think I look at my weaknesses completely different now than I used to. I look at them more as an opportunity to be brought to my knees For prayer and, you know, I'm, I'm ready to change. I'm ready to be better. I'm ready to grow Rather than like, oh gosh, look at how horrible this pit of despair that I'm in Yeah, what so what's what's different from um for you now versus Because when you first came to me, I don't know if you remember this You told me you had been what you said as you termed it sober.

funny because preceding that [: 00:05:00

Zach, if you let me go down the rabble hole, but my, my father passed away a few months later, I, I was working for his company. So all of a sudden I had to run the company moved. Um, a few months later my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer and we had a brand new baby and there was like this tsunami of stuff that I couldn't control.

Like it was, All this extra pressure. And the one thing I knew from that year and that time was like, I'm not going to be able to handle this if I kind of, you know, become selfish, essentially, you know, that's in my mind, that the root of pornography in many ways is there's some selfishness in there. I deserve this, or like, it's been hard for me.

And so there was that year and longer, but there's this, Porsche where I just like grunt white knuckled through it. Like, I'm gonna get through this. Yeah. But, but I always felt tired. I always felt like I was fighting, like, like the compulsion was still there, but I had to, I had to beat it. I had to, I had to overcome it.

Um, or else I was going to, I was going to fall, you know, or like, it was like the disaster was the scary thing that was keeping me from not doing it. So then when you remove all those really difficult challenges in life, and obviously there was some collateral damage. I mean, my dad was gone and my wife had a bilateral mastectomy, but it's, uh, those are tough things, but then it wasn't like top of mind anymore.

Kind of that will, if you want to put it that way, to just, you know, White knuckle through it was, was gone because the chaos and the tsunami had kind of subsided. It was more, it was more calm. I could relax now. I could take some time for myself. I could, and it started to see the same patterns that were so familiar.

And that's when I was like, Oh gosh, I need help. Like I, I thought I was done. You know, I need help now. I had this figured out exactly one whole year. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that the difference, there was certainly a mindset, mindset shift, which, which I'm sure you've, I mean, I've listened to your podcast.

You've talked about quite a bit on, but we can go on that. But, um, it was a mindset shift. And then it was just like looking at it. Even in your introduction, less like, this is the thing that defines me. You know, this, this was the thing. Oh, everything's great. I'm a great guy. I'm a, I even tell people when I introduce myself, I'm like, hi, I'm John Leighton.

I'm an all around nice guy. Like it's that, I feel that's the most true statement about me, but it's like, there's this little thing that if you knew you wouldn't want to be my friend. So I just decided like, This isn't going to be the thing that defines me anymore. I'm not going to let it take so much precedence in my mind or in my life because I don't, if I don't want it, why let it be the thing that, that rules, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And I love that. It's interesting, right? Because you, you described. Essentially being in a place of total fear. Like I have to put up the walls and I have to fight and manage through. And if I don't do this, I'm losing everything, right? That, that's where you are in that first year. And then you come through this process and you're like, wait a minute.

I just, that's just not who I want to be anymore. It's not so much like I got to fight this off. It's just like, oh wait, that's just not me. I, I wonder if you can describe the difference between, um, the way that you deal with urges now, or if you even have urges, um, anymore or as frequently versus that time when you were just You know, as, as the addicts would talk about it, white knuckling through it.

Yeah, I think so. Do I still get urges? Absolutely. Like, I think that is, uh, uh, it's like your favorite. So I also like to cook, like, you know, so when I sit there, when I, when I sit down with a bowl of chips and salsa, my, my, my tongue's already like. Where's that Diet Coke? So in some ways, I, I'm like, okay, there's a, I know what that feeling is like when I, when there's an urge or a thought or like, it's been a while, you know, they, they bubble up.

n I'm coming from a point of [: 00:10:00

Like it's been, it's been a while. It's been a long time. It's, it's going to happen. I know it's around the corner. Like I'm going to get tempted and I, Oh my gosh, I'm going to be alone on my computer this week. Cause no one, you know, everyone's working from home. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. Now it's like, yeah, I can look at pornography.

Yeah, I can. If I wanted to, I just don't want to, I don't want to do that because then that's not being who I want to be. Like that's, that takes away from how I'm trying to live. And that just seems like a really self sabotage. Like I say, sometimes imagine like, yeah, I could do that, but I might as well stab myself.

Like it's the same kind of like logic is the same kind of like, Oh, I'm trying to lose some weight. Let's just. Just stab myself in the leg and see how I do running this afternoon. Like it's the same, same thing. Right. That's, oh wow. Yeah. That's interesting. So why did you, why did you come to coaching? Well, let me, let me first ask you, what did you try first?

What had you tried in all of your life? Well, all my life was like, yeah, I have a problem with pornography. Go to the bishop. Like that was just in my mindset. That was just like, that's the repentance process. Like, I, I don't know if saying, you know, didn't have other deviations and where I was not being faithful, but pornography, masturbation were like, The crux of, you know, the, the, soar that festered on my, on my side.

So I just felt like it was revolving door. Like the bishop had just, uh, you know, a me on speed dial, right? Like, Hey, I'm coming back in. And I think I had done some business coaching. Um, obviously because of just the drastic nature of having to run the company. And I do, I have an MBA, like I I have experience in, in business, but I just was like, man, I've My life was falling apart.

My business is in a tough spot. I gotta figure out how to make this work. And I saw real success from two things. One was accountability. I wanted somebody that there wasn't an emotional side, like my wife or a sibling, or even, even the Bishop, the Bishop who sees me every Sunday. And like, I love serving.

Yeah, it knows me. And I love serving the church. And the worst is like, I go and do a service activity on Saturday and then I gotta go see him on Sunday. Like, it's just so deflating and, uh, like, I'm feeling shame for trying my best. Even though I'm failing, I'm still feeling shame for trying my best. Like, that's a horrible way to feel.

And so to have accountability to somebody that's like, hey, this isn't how I'm doing. I kind of need you to take the, this. from me, because if I sit and let this build inside of me, I'm just going to go back to it. I'm just going to, it's the only thing that's making me not feel this way. So you'd worked with bishops.

Had you worked with counselors? I had worked with a counselor a long time ago, like post mission. Um, it was, you know, new, I think it was new for me and partially new for my family. Kind of like, Oh, this, this might help you. And I enjoyed it, but it was more of the side of, I think that the idea at that time was like, do the 12 step program, go see a counselor and you're done.

So did you go, did you go through 12 steps? Oh, I've done 12 steps. Yeah. So that was, if we do the package, it's like do the 12 step program, go see counselors, see your bishop and it's done. And then I'm sitting there and like, it's not done. I'm still having problems. So am I broken? Like, am I the piece that's, that's wrong?

Cause literally I'm broken, which by the way, that's what the 12 steps tells you, like their big book. It's like, well, if they didn't do the steps well enough, then they didn't, they didn't succeed. And that's on them. Right. That's kind of the way that they couch it. Um, and I think it's really interesting because I take nothing from bishops because they essentially be, you know, they're thrust into this role where they have very little to no training and they're, you know, a judge in Israel.

And it's not like they're like automatically, you know, you get called as a bishop and you know exactly how to teach someone and not look at porn or not be unfaithful or any of that stuff. Right. And I think your experience is so similar to so many people. Um, what's different about coaching versus the things that you tried before coaching?

Yeah. So the first was definitely the accountability to someone that I wasn't, and I'm trying to say like having emotional connection is a bad thing, but it's the fact that I can have accountability with somebody who wasn't, Bringing some type of emotion behind it in many ways. It actually is like a small example of, I imagine how interactions with the saver are going to be.

s I imagine now going to the [: 00:15:00

I love you. Not only do I love you so much, I'm going to go to his atonement. I'm going to love you so much that no matter what you tell me, I'm going to be okay with it. It's really interesting. I think, I think you've made an extraordinarily good point there. It's really interesting to me that the Savior doesn't really talk about, you know, what the, what the woman brought in adultery did.

He's just like, okay, I'm not going to condemn you. Go and sin no more. He doesn't make it into a thing. And of all the people on the planet who could have made it into a thing. You know, you know, I, again, I don't want to take anything away from, from bishops, but you know, we've all sat in front of someone, whether it was a bishop or a counselor or whatever.

And they were like, dude, get your act together. You've got, you know, you got to figure this out, that sort of thing. Um, and again, I, I'm sure that's not everyone's experience with bishops. I've, I've had great bishops and I've had less than great bishops. And again, I take nothing from them, but I just kind of like, think about the example of the savior there.

And I think he, he did, he wasn't flexed about it. He wasn't frustrated. He wasn't like, and, and he knew what the cost was. The only person on the planet that knows the actual cost, right. Of what you're doing. And he's like, okay, listen, I'm not going to condemn you go and sin no more. And that's, and it's like, okay, it's behind us now.

Let's move on. Let's, let's figure out how to not be that person anymore. Yeah. And I don't mean to say there's not no consequences from your choices, but it's, it's, it, for my business coaching, it's like, Hey, here's talk about what your goals are. Let's talk about what we want to accomplish. If you don't make money, like if you don't follow through with your goals, you don't make money.

Like, and that's okay. Like that is what happens. And it's kind of the, I never had the, my business coach be like, Oh my gosh, like they were not too so invested that they care. You did what with your time today? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like, what do you want to accomplish? Let's chat it out. And that's kind of, it was the same thing.

It's like, I acknowledge you acknowledge there's consequences to my choices, but I'm not going to make the choice, the focus of this conversation. Right. Yeah. No, I think that's a, I think that's a really good point is that when you sit down with someone, especially a coach who I think is, I don't know. I played sports and I'm like, I was not a good kid.

That was my coaching session. Now. All right. Tell me, Zach. Right. And I was that kid who was always screwing things up. And you know, you'd have these coaches and they would just be like, dude, that's not what we're doing. And that, that was it. And then you'd move on and everybody would get back into, in, in the line and we'd, we'd, we'd get better.

Right. And I think sometimes that's just as valuable. In fact, I think that's way more valuable than anybody who's standing there going, come on, I can't believe you suck so bad. I mean, that's not what they're saying actually, but that's really the way that it feels. Right. Yeah. So when you think about the, the way things have changed for you, what would you have done differently had you known this stuff, you know, 10 years ago?

Oh, so here, this actually speaks. So I, I said like coaching at two things. This speaks exactly to it. So the second point is the difference between accountability and internal accountability, because even in the 12 step program, we talk about it being accountable, but like, okay. As I said, the process was do the 12 steps, like accomplish every 12 steps.

Then, you know, maybe see counselor, see your bishop, and it, it, it's not that it was like tick box. 'cause you know, we all say in the church, oh, we're not ticking off boxes, but we kind of do, you know, we kind of still do it like, oh, very ly we do, you're 19 when, when you go on a mission, like, oh, you're 25. Are you dating anybody?

You know, like, it's like when when's the kids? Oh, you're 26 and do you have any children? Yeah, exactly. So. So there was always external accountability that was a focus, even though, even though in my mind, I'm like, okay, I want to be good. Cause I want to be not only do I want to be worthy, but I love the gospel.

e, I'm accountable to me and [: 00:20:00

Like it turned into, you know, being about internal accountability and me recognizing that I'm really only accountable to myself. Like I have, I have a role and responsibilities. They played in my life, my family, my Bishop, you know, the Savior. But in the end of everything, it's all me. It's accountable to me.

It's my choice. And so instead of like, just focusing on like the porn problem, it's like, I make a goal or plan for my day. If my choices don't align with that goal and that plan, then I reflect, is the goal and plan wrong or do my choices need to be different? And sometimes it's a little both. I mean, I'm, I have lazy days.

Let's be honest. We're all human, but, but yeah, that's now it's just me. Like I have to bear the brunt, the responsibility. I totally, Put my faith in the Lord helping me through it. But it's kind of what the vice president Hinkley had from his dad on the mission, like get on your knees and pray like it's up to the Lord and then get up and work like it's up to you.

That's, that's what I have kind of tried to make my, my motto now. So. Yeah, and it's interesting, right? I, I often hear people ask me, you know, people come to me and they're like, what's the best filter? What's the best way to have an accountability partner? There's only one accountability partner and only one filter that actually works.

It's the machine between your ears. And that's it. There's no other system that's going to actually solve this problem for you. And once you start to recognize that, and then, you know, take on that responsibility. And I think a lot of times we, you know, we say, well, I'm responsible for this, but we don't like, we, we still say things like I'm an addict.

Yeah, which is which in and of itself is is an offloading of responsibility. It's like, oh i'm i'm broken And therefore I don't have the capacity to change. So That's what's happening to to me not for me to me, right? well, that speaks to the first point I had like taking responsibility for it when you're in that emotional spot and you're like Oh, like I take i'm the worst like like god crush me with the mountains, you know Like i'm I don't even want to see you that that I actually feel is It's like Satan's way of taking responsibility because real responsibility is being like, Hey, these are the choices I made.

I need help. You have to take these from me. I am really screwing this up, but I am going to live and die with what the choices I'm making. I'm not going to let myself get in that stage that's just. Emotionally driven because I'm, I'm naturally, I mean, we've talked, I'm a naturally emotional person, but emotionally driven, uh, responsibility or accountability, I don't think has the lasting power.

It's like the warm fuzzies. When you have a nice testimony meeting or a spiritual experience, or you're giving someone service, you feel the warm fuzzies, but they leave, they don't last. You have to shift into a spot where you're like, I'm going to own this. I, I want to own this. Uh, I think the One of the biggest problems with pornography, but maybe it's any sin, but in my case, pornography masturbation is that you don't feel comfortable with yourself.

Like you said, I feel broken. I don't, I don't want to spend time with myself. I don't want to be with myself because if anyone else knew, they wouldn't want to spend time with me either. Yeah. But all of a sudden I, I want to spend time with myself. Hey, hey, John, I see where you're at. I see where you want to be.

They're not aligning. Let's, let's sit down. I want to. Make the small changes over time that get us to there and and that's really it's a tough thing to want to sit with yourself Take the emotion out can't be like all you're the worst or I can't just get us and just say like what are we? Really doing?

What are we really doing today? Yeah, and I think you're exactly right when you are capable of being with yourself Which, by the way, is not always a pleasant thing for many people because they're not even capable of doing it. Not only are they not just comfortable doing it, but very few people are really good at just being alone with themselves.

And the idea that I'm working on that relationship with me, you know, who do I want to be? How can I learn to be alone with myself? How can I learn to be the person that I'm proud of being? Right. That's so, there's so much value in that. So much change. I think that happens once you start down that path. Um, I love that.

I love that you, you know, you've experienced that in this process because it makes such a huge difference. I think for everybody who goes through that process, it makes a huge difference to get them to where they really, really want to be, which is living according to the values that they have. Yeah.

ght. Um, I, I sometimes talk [: 00:25:00

It's like, no, no, no. The person I really am on the outside is a vegetarian, but. If you looked in my freezer right now, it's full of bacon, right? That's so incongruous that if our vegetarian friends knew that about us, they'd be like, what, what's wrong with you? Why do you have all this meat in your fridge?

Right? And that's really a lot of what's happening for, especially members of the church. When it comes to pornography is they're like, I want to live this life of holiness and discipleship. And I have this. This thing that I keep in the freezer that nobody knows about, but every once in a while I'll pull me out of package and fry it up.

And then we like, we feel like we're horrible humans. Yeah. So let me ask you, how have, um, how have things changed in your relationship with your spouse? Based on the, even, you know, from that, so I think, you know, you had that year of sobriety and then you started back into pornography for a little while.

And then it's been quite a bit of time now. How have things changed between you and your spouse overall in the last couple of years? Yeah, I, one, The second major part is it's trust. Now I don't, you know, we say a lot of platitudes, everyone does, but especially the church and we're like, and in Christian groups, like, well, trust is earned.

And I agree with that. Trust is easy to lose, but trust didn't come about because we were focused on trust. It came about because behavior and, um, Even the, you know, the, the sequence of which choices were made, priorities changed. And then it was a natural, uh, growth and improvement. So, so I, I, I do want to say trust, but I don't want it to be like, well, you got to trust me or I got to trust, you know, how do I trust you?

That like that all had to go away first in order to ever build any kind of trust. And, and, and what I mean in that way is that, you know, I think my wife, Saw that I was aligning better with being who I, you know, profess to be. My, it was aligning with my values and she knew that I was working on an independent of her.

So the external account, it wasn't coming to her and be like, Oh, I'm having a hard day or you got to help me out or, or whatever. It was, I don't think anyone should ever use that phrase. You got to help me. No, but you know, you, you got to put, you got to monitor the internet or you got to take the passwords, whatever that should clarify.

Or yeah, like it now was like, I was independently working on it. She saw me doing that. And so now it's just at a point like. Yeah, I like, I mean, while we all work from home for a long time, it was never like, Oh, you know, what are you doing in your room? Where, where, where you've been at work? Like it's, it's, uh, and, and also I wanted to now, because there's not the shame and guilt.

If I am feeling, um, what did you say earlier? Urged, not urges, but like temptation. It's just like, yeah, I'm just, I'm just feeling off today. I'm just kind of feeling those old feelings. Oh, tell me about what they are. Tell me about how you're feeling about them. Oh, I'm feeling this way. And like, It's not this like emotionally charged conversation.

Wow, how how has her reaction changed to you? Um, because I you know, I think most wives When we start on this path, uh, or many, many wives, they are like, are you looking at porn? Are you looking at porn? Um, and I don't know if your wife has stopped asking, stopped asking you that question or if she ever did ask you that question, but how has, how has the way that she has reacted to you when you come to her different?

Um, I think the number one change is that She knows like there used to be a phrase. So my wife's amazing. I mean, I've talked to you about it. She's way better than me at everything. And so she already has that really well built personal accountability. She developed that through youth and, you know, I'm figuring out later in life.

Yeah, I'll catch it up. And so. I think she, the biggest change in, she never was really like, you know, are porn? Cause she's like, it was, it's up to you. It's up to you. But when she would, when she would say that in the past, like, because you know, she, I think it was protective nature. It was truth and it was protective.

right? Yeah, yeah. I, I'm a [: 00:30:00

Like, she's gonna get herself to the and I've got to do the same. I mean, we're in a marriage to make it easier and happier together, but individually we've got to get to the celestial kingdom. And so the biggest change in reaction was though that phrase, like, it's up to you to decide what you're going to do.

Doesn't, it doesn't hurt. It's like, it is up to me. It's actually an encouraging thought. Like you're right. It is up to me. And so when I come to her and it's just like, you know, I'm feeling off or, Or, you know, Hey, I'm, I've seen old patterns, whatever the phrase is. It's a lot easier to say, and, and this is what's happening.

Not the, I used to hang a carrot out. Like I had a hard day, you know, don't ask me too much, but I just want to, I just want you to know that I'm trying to be good now. It's like. Yeah, this is what I'm feeling. Do you have time right now? I don't have time right now. Can we sit later? Oh, I have time and I would like to tell you this stuff Like I'd like to tell you what's going on when I'm feeling because in the end it's up to me.

Yeah, so it sounds like You're able to actually discuss your your feelings in an open and honest way. Yeah. Yeah, I don't feel A I don't feel like I'm disgusting them to be forgiven which I think is a I think we're all in the same boat. there's a pattern in the past, right? So you're not coming to her and saying, Hey, honey, I'm going to tell you what's happened.

So you can tell me I'm okay. Yeah. This is not confession like this. This is, we're not doing that. Um, so that's the first thing. And then I'm able to talk about it. Just be like, these are the, not like these are the facts alone. I don't mean it like that. But yeah. I'm present in what I'm talking about, not like, oh, if I don't talk about this, then this, this, and this is going to happen, or I haven't talked about it in a long time, so now I've got this bunch of this crap that I've got to deal with, because like, you know, it wasn't just today, it was, it was the day before and a week before that, it's like, I'm present, like, hey, I recognize that today is not working out with what I want to be, and so I want to tell you, Because I want to, I want, I want to be better talking to you is making me better.

And in some cases there's been times when I have, that hasn't been my wife. Like, I also want to say that sometimes I know, and it's not, I don't know, necessarily like thought of pornography related, but I know that there's things that it's my business partner that I want to talk to. Or it is my bishop or it's my kids.

Like not every conversation where I'm falling short of the choice to make is My wife's conversation and that's okay because I'm not confessing right? It's who I know that I need to talk to you Well, you know, what's that scripture working it out, you know with the lord And I think sometimes we work it out with people who aren't the lord Because the lord's put them there for us to work it out with but not because they're going to solve the problem Right.

Yeah, and and that's So so valuable, especially when it comes to your spouse. I think You Well, let me ask you, did you ever at like some point in the past, had you ever felt like she owed you, like there was like, I'm the man in the relationship and I do the man things and then you, you're the wife in the relationship and you do the wife things and you owe me some of those wife things because I owe you some of the man things.

Yeah, it's like I scratch your back, you scratch mine kind of, kind of deal. Yeah. And it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's a really easy cycle to get stuck in. And, and has that changed? Has that changed dramatically for you? And how do you, like, how do you guys relate differently now? I think in some, in some areas there's, I wouldn't change as a thing as sometimes we look at change as like a total opposite, a shift.

There are some things in our marriage that are like. I'm taking care of stuff. You gotta take care of some stuff. You know, we all have the laundry, the dishes, the kids, whatever it is. Sure. But in our intimate life, there's no longer this like, you know, I've been doing all this stuff. I, you owe me, like I, this is how our family works.

It's, it's more like I, I want to, I've been focusing my time to try and develop, Hey, we've have time together. Let's connect. Let's be together. And that is such a nicer feeling of like the. Anxiety and the kind of, uh, obsession. It's the, you know, the obsession of like, well, if this is going to happen or whatever, you know, like, and, and it's a continual development as well.

ada. We don't talk about sex [: 00:35:00

I can help you not need it later versus I want to be intimate with you. Is that different? Has that changed? Cause we've talked a little bit about like, there were times when you wanted to have sex and she's like, I'm not into it, but I'll just give it to you. Yeah. I mean, I obviously I never wanted to feel like a dog who like begged for his dinner.

Right. So I think it does. It has happened. It does happen. You know, it's, it's, uh, I think it's obviously a common thing if it's people call it already, we've labeled it duty sex. Um, you know, is there, is there all, is it like, Oh, you're done pornography. And now there's like, whoo, sex drive. No, like that's not a reality.

Right. But at the same time, there's much better intimacy. So like sex can still sometimes be like, Hey, um, was this better? I mean, it's, I don't, I, it's funny cause I haven't talked to my wife about what I'm going to talk about, but there's much healthier conversations, much healthier connection because the goal isn't always just like, we got to have sex.

If we don't have sex, I'm like, and, and then, and then if I am feeling that way to be able to talk about that. Without like, oh my gosh, well now I don't want to because I'm like, it's been a natural, healthier development. Um, and it's not just like the longer I wait for the sex, it's like more refined I'm becoming as a person.

The more that I'm living present in my state, the more my wife recognizes that I'm doing that and I'm hitting the goals that I've mentioned, or I'm accomplishing the things that I want to, there's a much more fulfilling way to have intimacy. And then when sex does happen, it's because Like, yeah, I want to do that.

I want to do that with you. Right. And I love that because I think that's so important. I think you, you named it, right? You're like, I don't want to be a dog who's like begging for scraps from the table. I want to be your partner. And I think that's so, so important. And I think there's a lot of psychological struggle for a lot of men who are like, no, I feel like I want more sex, but I'm not getting more sex.

And I don't know how to get something that I don't ask for. And I think you've named it, right? You're like, no, no, no. I'm, I'm creating myself. I'm creating this person that she wants to be with. So I don't have to ask. I just have to have conversations with her where she's like, I'm into this. You're into this.

Let's do this. Right. Like it's, yeah, it's a totally different equation than I think the one that we were taught. My wife said something really true one time and she said, even if you got all the sex you wanted, it wouldn't be enough. And that's the funny thing about sex. Like you, we, and I'm sure I've experienced the guy's experience.

Like they go on a binge of pornography. And then you're like, I feel bad, but like, then you can go on another one, like the next day or like, you know, like it's so it's the sex portion of that isn't ever, ever going to be fulfilled. Like just sex. Like it lasts and then it's done and so that made me start to realize that I needed to see intimacy beyond just sex.

I love it. And not intimacy for to the goal of sex but like Intimacy for its own sake. Yeah, for its own sake. Being present for its own sake. Yeah, and it's okay to ask. I mean, I think we, we, you know, we had marriage counseling, they talked about, um, requests and honoring requests and talking about requests.

That's a whole nother thing to talk about. So, but he said, like, requests are healthy. It's a person saying, this is what I'm feeling. It's just being able to be open and in a proper position to listen to those requests and also open and be told no or yes, like it's okay. So I don't want to get away from like, well, now it's just pure spontaneous.

Hey, whenever we get a moment together, but it's, uh, it is. It's much healthier and also much more satisfying. Uh, that's awesome. Do you guys, do you guys talk to your kids about pornography or sex or anything? Oh yeah. To the point that my kids are like, Oh, dad, you know, I've been in youth program basically since I've been married and now I'm in the Bishopric.

my kids, but not to not for [: 00:40:00

Then you would, cause you've been in the youth program for a long enough time that you've probably talked about pornography about once a year for a number of years. How do you talk about it differently now? Oh, there's one of the youth program. Kids coming in and out. How do you talk about it differently now than you did in past years?

I think the biggest change that I've seen through the youth program, but even in how I want to talk about my kids is that I don't laser focus on it as in like, this is the bad thing. This, you know, you know, the old chewed gum analogy, like if you have sex before you're married, yeah, then you're a chewed piece of gum.

Who wants a chewed piece of gum? I actually use one that's like a more, not, not use it. I just think when I think of that, I think the more like a 20 is 20, whether I find it on the side of the road and dirty or I have it in my wallet out of the bank machine is 20 bucks. And so I've kind of tried to make kids.

It's just like, you know, you're awesome. We sing songs. I'm a child of God. You know that the savior, you know, died for you, right buddy? You know that the savior died for you. And so you're awesome. You are inherently awesome. These things will stop that awesomeness from progressing. It's like doesn't allow you to move forward because you're in this, in this life is to grow.

That is your sole purpose for being here. And. That is going to harm or reduce your capacity to grow. And so it's more like that is a distraction. That's like an issue that you need to be aware of. If you have that issue, come talk to mom and dad, because I've dealt with it. I mean, my kids know that I've dealt with pornography and masturbation.

You know, I might be around my five year old, but um, They, I'm quite open to chat with them about it and not in super depth, but just because I recognize that this, this is something that's hard. It, it stopped me for a long time. Wow. Yeah. And I think that openness changes the entire culture around this.

And I love that you're willing to do that. What how's your relationship with yourself different? I sure like myself a lot better Yeah, and i'm grateful to like not always be feeling like oh I shouldn't be doing this and not just the shoulds of pornography But like yeah, I should I should be reading I should be exercising more.

I should do this should like oh man should life sucks It's the worst like I hate it. I look back on living that way. I'm like Who who in their right mind thinks that they're going to be excited to wake up If before they even wake up, their mind's already saying, you should do this. You should do this.

You should do this. If I have crummy days now, I'm like, I had a crummy day because I chose to have a crummy day. It was the best day ever. You know, like, like it's, and that's okay. Like the shits out the window. Like I just, I, as soon as they come in, I try my best to say, why am I feeling this? Okay, that's what I've got.

Is there, you know, sometimes it's like a business thing. Can I delegate this? Cause I'm overwhelmed or something. Who do I need to talk to? And it's just kind of attacking that feeling because yeah, I hate, I, I look back and whenever those creep up, I'm like, Oh, I gotta get deal with that right now. Yeah. And I want to, I want to just clarify this is, there's a difference between what you're talking about and what I call toxic positivity, which is this like.

Everything's great. No matter what's happening. Like my, my legs are literally on fire, but I'm fine. Right? Like, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about, I'm just not beating myself up for what isn't happening yet. And I'm just facing that like head on. Yeah, no, I, I made a quote once. I mean, I made it up because I gave presentation.

I was like, Oh, I made up this quote, but it says that all the water in the world will never fill a leaky bucket. And that is there's this concept of just pushing in positivity. Like if you have negativity, just dump in more positivity, live your best life, you know, all that stuff. But if you have a leaky bucket, it's going to empty.

So it's just choosing to. Yeah, I think that's, I think you're exactly right. I think, um, you know, just facing it is so valuable and I love that. I love that idea. I got one last question for you. Sure. What, what advice would you give somebody sitting in the seat that they're in right now? They're listening to this podcast.

, Looking at porn, but they, [: 00:45:00

I, okay. I, my, my biggest advice would probably be a question. What is the, the first step of repentance? Because it's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I would be deep in your relationship with Jesus Christ. Even if you are still doing pornography, even if you just went off a binge, I have felt moments in my life where I felt his arm around me and I'm saying, and I'm really screwing up, like I am not where I want to be.

And the answer isn't like, I'll take it. You know, the answer isn't like, Oh, give me in the guilt's gone. The answer is, I know, and it's still going to be hard, but I love you. And the fact that there's someone who loves us amongst all the issue, amongst all the shortcomings and the, the, the failures. That will inspire you more than any book you'll read or, or podcasts, you know, that I don't, I'm not trying to shoot this one down, but anything, any of that will, will fall away in comparison, the closer you get to your Savior.

Those things are all still important and they're all still really good, but without that key piece of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and developing that relationship, it's, it just gets muddy and muddled. And I find. That I can see when I'm pulling away. It's like, no longer am I pulling away and then like, oh, now I'm doing pornography.

It's like, oh, I'm not, I'm not as close as I want to be. And then I come back and then those things aren't an issue. Like that's not the focus anymore. It's, I want to strengthen this relationship. I want to be closer with my savior. So that for me is the biggest thing. I, every time I meet people, cause you know, I, I'm trying to manage people now.

I like conversations with them. I don't want to talk about pornography. I want to talk about what they're trying to do and what they want to be because that's the same thing that a savior wants them to be. You know, you've, you've got a God as your biggest, best friend, you know, biggest fan on already what you want to accomplish.

So let's stop looking at what you're not accomplishing. We'll deal with it. We're still going to address it, but let's not make that the focus. Let's, let's make the, your biggest support team, your focus. I love that. And I think that's one of those, those really key components that often we forget, which is looking where you're going rather than looking behind you and, and, you know, being the land of should, right.

And I, and I talk about if you, if you've ever been running and you spend any time looking over your shoulder, looking backwards, You don't run as well. You don't run fast or as fast. You're not as capable. Like I played football in high school. I was a running back. I never spent time looking behind me. I was always looking ahead to the right and to the left, making sure I was focused on the target.

I was never looking behind me. And that's, What you're saying here, which is let's focus on where you want to be. Let's go there. Let's make that happen. And let's not spend any time looking at how terrible you might feel about what you did That's paid for. Yeah, that's the relationship. We have to recognize with our with our savior Is that he paid for it now by no means am I saying and I don't think you're saying this at all Eat drink and be merry and you know, just do whatever right?

That's not what that's not what anybody said What we're saying is, if we can focus on going forward and building ourselves into a better person, some of this stuff will fade into the background all by itself because we won't have time for it. But all of it was paid for regardless. And we might have to work on it a little bit.

We might have to recognize and, you know, take some additional time out of our day to be like, okay, I actually need to, I need to address this thing more carefully, but it's not the focus of my life. I love that advice. Yeah, it's paid for behind you. It's paid for in front of you. Like, and, and he's, and, and like, that's the thing.

It's still going to be hard, but I'm here. I'm going to be with you. And, and, and like you said, as you deepen the relationship, you're never going to think he'd treat me and be married because you're now, you know, your biggest fan is there. You love him. He loves you. You're like, man, I don't want to do that stuff.

Great. Yeah, I could, I totally could. But they don't want it. Yes, and that is so much the truth. Like, when I think of God, I think of him in his omniscient, omnipotent capacity, and there's nothing he thinks, oh, I can't do that, or I shouldn't do that, or I should do this. Like, he doesn't think any of those things.

He thinks, I [: 00:50:00

I mean, you are here having a growing experience. Like life is Great. Like life, the external, external, that could be kind of crummy sometimes, but the internal you, you're pretty dang. Great. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you for sharing your story. With this audience because I know that it will change someone's life I I greatly appreciate you.

I appreciate the time that I got to spend with you regularly And i'm so grateful to see the change that has come for you. You're amazing. Thanks. My pleasure. Zach. All right, man We'll talk to you soon Take care. Thanks for listening to the Self Mastery Podcast. Every day Darcy and I work with amazing men and women to remove pornography from their lives and relationships.

If you're ready to take the next step in your journey, let us help you sign up for a consult at zachspafford. com slash work with me and you can set up some time for you or your spouse to meet with me or with Darcy and we can help you get started on your self mastery journey.

Thanks for listening to the Self Mastery Podcast. Every day, Darcy and I work with amazing men and women to remove pornography from their lives and relationships. If you're ready to take the next step in your journey, let us help you. Sign up for a consult@zachspafford.com slash work with me, and you can set up some time for you or your spouse to meet with me or with Darcy, and we can help you get started on your self mastery journey.