Marriage, Intimacy & Overcoming Porn: Brent & Becky’s Journey

Episode 186

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Zach Spafford: [: 00:00:00

And if you're ready to get going and starting to succeed and at quitting pornography and putting it behind you in a permanent way, go to gettothrive.com/workwithZach. and sign up for a free consult. I'd love to meet with you and your spouse and do the work with you , so that you can begin to thrive beyond pornography.

All right, my friends, without any further ado, here's my interview with Brent and Becky.

Interview with Brent and Becky: All right. Hey everybody, this is Zach. I am, I'm interviewing a couple of my favorite people here. But Brent is one of my favorite people to talk to. Uh, Brent has gone through the course and Becky has been, I think in some ways a beneficiary of that. Is that fair to say, Becky?

So today we're just going to talk, ask a few questions. I'm super grateful that you came on the podcast. I really appreciate you guys. Doing this partly because I feel like whenever someone can tell the story of success, they are offering hope to someone who hasn't been able to find that success yet.

And so I really appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you have done within the program. And I'm, I'm looking forward to hearing a lot about you. Tell us what it was like before you found coaching with me. So before coaching with you, then I found, I found it to be, like you said, it was hopeless. Uh, there was a lot of different things that we tried.

Um, there was a lot of shame and guilt. Associated with it, there was, um, various discussions with various bishops and there was no resolution. I remember when I was, uh, so we're LDS as well. And I was called, um, into the, what was it? The high council. I was called into the high council of all places for me to be, which felt even worse, honestly.

And, and the, uh, First counselor in the, in the Stake presidency, just kind of looked me in the face and he says, you need to cease doing this thing. And I was like, really? I really didn't know. Thank you for that help that you just gave me there to cease. And he was very serious about it. And I'm just looking at him, like, wanted to say some other words, but I was like, I know that.

Thank you for, for your, uh, help and your understanding. So do you ever just want to be like, all right, Captain Obvious, I've been working on it. What I wanted to do is grab him by his neck and just slap him around a bit, but yeah, lawyer. So, you know, I wouldn't want to do that, but that's what it felt like.

It was very, uh, uh, degrading. Yeah. So what, what exactly were you trying to solve? The idea of what, what it was

like of the, the idea of, of the, um, Of the pornography usage, you know, am I addicted? Can I stop? Um, is it possible to stop? Did I ruin my marriage? Am I ruining my marriage? Um, all those things. What was it like for you before Brent found coaching Becky? Well, to be sure, Becky found coaching for me. Becky found coaching.

All right. Which is good. Well, how did you, how did, how did Becky find coaching? To, to go back, I was, I was looking into coaching, um, as possibly something that I would do. I'd listened to a lot of podcasts and I, I mean, my, my kids were now old enough. They were in school. I was looking to do something that was more my own.

I've always helped kind of run Brent's business, but I kind of was looking for something that was a little bit my own, my own voice, my own. Thoughts that I could just call my own. And so I was kind of looking at the coaching world. Um, and you know, if you look into the coaching world, there's lots of different niches, lots of different people coaching on different things.

listen. And I'll be honest, [: 00:05:00

And so, um, I kind of knew about some things before we got married. And so I wasn't like completely, um, blindsided necessarily, but I guess I kind of had this naive thought that, oh, well, he's just going to go in and talk to the Bishop and get it taken care of and go away. And, um, obviously over the years, that wasn't the case.

And I realized this is bigger. Then I thought it was, and it was bigger as in how it was affecting me and how I felt about our marriage. But, um, I had just watched him struggle over the years of so many different things that he had tried and all of the shame and guilt that he had around it. And I just felt like there's got to be a solution.

There's, there's got to be something because why would this be, be his vice that he's going to carry without there being a solution. But it just kept feeling like nobody had the solution. And they're always saying, go talk to your Bishop about it. But it always felt like he would go talk to the Bishop and the Bishop would be like, Oh, well, yeah, you need to kind of work on that.

It wasn't like the Bishop was ever trained on it, giving him very good advice. Some bishops were even like embarrassed. And now looking back, I'm like, I bet some of them probably struggled with it at the same time. I bet you at least half of them, at least half of them. I actually know a couple of the bishops that I talked to, they're like, Yeah, I had the same problem.

Yeah. And I'm like, how'd you stop? Like, just willpower. And I'm like, yeah, so it was, so as a wife and wanting to be helpful, I had heard you get interviewed by Jody Moore. And I was like, Oh, baby, you've got to, you've got to listen to this podcast. And so I didn't. And I was like, maybe you should sign up for this.

This could be really good. I think. And so that's kind of where it started. So what had you guys tried before? Before me. Oh, I,

what happened? Well, we didn't do, we didn't do any of that 12 step stuff because I've never believed in that stuff, um, as a, so I'm, I'm a physical therapist and, and, you know, we, we try to be evidence based and when you're looking at evidence and you're looking at the statistics, you're looking at these courses and, and, or these 12 step Programs.

And I looked into it. I took a look and there's, there was minimal to no success and it was a time consumer and you found that out by doing them, but there's no, no, there's no success there, um, talking to bishops. We never went to a therapist. We actually were going to go to a marriage counselor, uh, for a while.

And, uh, We couldn't find one. Yeah. They're just not, well, an LDS. Yeah. Well, that, that's part of where you live. Just aren't very many LDS people up there. Yeah, we're in the mission field for sure. So, um, those things, we didn't try too many other therapies, mostly just Bishop. And then it was like. Try this way of thinking or try this willpower or read these scriptures.

Or I gotta tell you, I mean, I love reading the scriptures, but scriptures don't save you from anything. They don't do that. What they do is they help you to think about things in a certain way. And then you. You try to apply those to your lives. So it was just a lot of the rinse and repeat type of things.

And it just wasn't working. Obviously it wasn't working. So in, as you, as you were looking at all these things, you know, it sounds like you, you were, you've been searching for a long time for a solution. None of the solutions that you saw out there seemed to make sense. Everything that you were doing was just like.

Beating your head against the wall. What was, what was the difference when you came to me? What did you see in terms of, okay, yeah, I'm going to try this. Cause it's not, it's not inexpensive to work with me. And so my, my question, I guess, is, you know, what made this stand out in a way that it was like, yes, I need to work with Zach because, well, can, can I say something before he, yeah.

So, um, before. And, you know, he talks about some of the things that we tried. Some of the things that I personally tried, you know, obviously the typical stuff that, that wives do, like, you know, checking his phone, checking the computer. Um, putting all of the blocks on the computer and all that. You were managing him like a boss.

tally was. And I hated it. I [: 00:10:00

in the church, in those areas. The, and it has more to do with the culture. You heard it here first, people. Right. So. No, but I think you're exactly right. There is a big difference. We've lived in, you know, outside of Utah and we've lived in Utah and I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, so as a girl growing up in the church, you are, it's like shoved down your throat about your virtue and how your virtue is tied to your sexual sexuality and that you shouldn't be sexual and, and you are supposed to act a certain way so that the men don't screw up and if the men screw up, well, that's totally fine because they're a guy and they're programmed that way, but you women are not, which.

The more I'm researching it, the more I'm like, actually, that's flipped. But when I was growing up, everything was on the woman. And so I felt like in my marriage, it was my job to be like, Hey, you can't do this. You can't do this. You can't, you need to check in with me. How come you didn't call? How come you're late from work?

I didn't know what you were doing. What were you doing? And, and I just felt like, why is this my job? This is stupid. And so I finally was like, I'm no longer your policeman. If you go to hell, you go to hell. I'm just, I'm so done with this. And I, I loved him. So I wasn't like, I'm going to leave you. It was more this idea of, I am so tired of being your policeman.

I'm not going to do it anymore. I just want to love you. Well, how did that impact your sexual relationship? How did it impact your desire for intimacy with Brent?

Brent knows the answer to this. Where's your answer? So, no, no, no. I, so I have to It's like this journey in my mind, and it sounds so stupid, but like growing, just don't use the term organic and then, okay. No, it was it. Growing up in the church, obviously, like I said, as a girl, you're supposed to be virtuous.

You're not supposed to be sexual, and so. Well, I think we erroneously conflate virtuosity with non sexuality, and I think that's an error. I don't even think they're related, if I'm being very honest. But, at the time, I didn't know. At the time, that was all I was taught in young women, is you're supposed to act a certain way, and you're supposed to be this certain way, and yet you are still supposed to attract a guy.

And so as a girl, you're totally confused, like, I'm supposed to be attracted to this guy. But I'm also supposed to be the epitome of virtuosity. And, um, he's supposed to just be head over heels for me, but I'm not supposed to be super sexual. And, and then of course, and you know, we've told all of our kids.

Because sometimes they're like, Ew, stop kissing each other. Ew, stop hugging. And I'm like, one day you're going to find a guy and it's going to take everything in your willpower to not touch him and to not let him touch you. And they just look at me like, Ew, I don't want to hear that mom. Stop talking. Oh my gosh.

My, my daughter, very same. Basic conversation. We have a friend who she's young and she got pregnant and my, my daughter comes to my wife and she says, why would someone want to do that?

Until you find the person that you want to do that with, you're just like, yeah, ew, I I've been told all my life, I'm not supposed to do this. We don't have sex outside of marriage. And so then when we met in college, like we literally, we were months away from our wedding date. And it was to the point where it was like, if we can't stop touching each other, we're calling it off.

It was that bad. It was. And, and of course I felt super guilty, like, oh, I'm such a bad Mormon girl because I'm letting him touch me and I'm wanting to touch him and we're not even married yet. And I'm so awful. And so, you know, it's this kind of rollercoaster, like I'm not supposed to be sexual, but then I find a man that I absolutely want to be sexual with.

and you're supposed to know [: 00:15:00

So it's like this crazy, all these thoughts. And then you start like, okay, you get into your marriage, you're kind of working things out. And then it becomes more like, wait, I thought, I thought when we got married and you had access to me sexually, that this would kind of go away. And it didn't. And so then all of a sudden, I started getting thoughts in my mind, like, Hmm, maybe he's settled for me.

Maybe I wasn't exactly what he wanted. And so then it's this crisis in my mind all the time of, I got to look right, my hair's got to be perfect, my body's got to be the right shape, I've got to, I've got to be exactly what he wants. So then he won't go to porn. Yeah. And obviously it didn't matter what I did.

He was, but at the time I didn't know that I thought it was my fault. I thought I wasn't good enough. I wasn't what he wanted. He settled and Well, that was the message you'd been given. It wasn't even so much a, oh, I came up with this idea. This is the message we give our young women. If you wear a bikini, then the boys will have thoughts, and that's your fault.

Hold on. Wait a minute. That's not true. Boys have thoughts whether you're wearing a bikini or you're fully clothed. Boys have Constantly have thoughts, right? And it's the same thing, I think, that we were taught as boys. She'll, she'll manage that. Don't worry about it. And so I blamed her too. Like, you know, we had, we would have sex and it's like the next day I'd be like wanting to look at porn and it's just like, well, maybe the sex just wasn't good enough.

Maybe she's just not giving me enough. And it's like, it becomes this used, like she feels like she's being used. Yeah. And so it's totally not fair to her. And it's, The expectations are way too high that I would have because my only teacher was porn. So when we got married, I was like, well, I can do this and I can do this and I can do this and I'll be totally satisfied.

And she's like, what are you doing to me? So there was that part there that, you know, she felt like, what am I to you exactly? Am I your wife or am I just a receptacle? Yeah. Or other times, because I'll be honest, I wanted to know what he was looking at. So there was a few times I looked. And I was like, Oh my gosh, is that what he wants me to do?

Um, and then because, you know, I grew up so sheltered around that kind of stuff. I, I didn't really know all the things. And so I'm looking at some of this and I'm like, is that like, okay to do in a message? Like, I don't know, because all I had ever been told was porn was evil and bad. Right. And so I'm looking at anything that happens on porn.

I'm like, well, we can't do that. Cause that's evil and bad. And we can't do that. And that's evil and bad, but I am a little bit curious, but I can't have those thoughts because that's evil and bad. And so you, I have like this struggle in me of, I want to look into that sexuality, but if I look into that, then I'm just as bad.

I'm just as evil. And so I've got to be. The, the one that holds the higher level. And so then it was a constant, even when we were having sex, if he wanted to try something, I'd be like, Ooh, I'm not your, I'm not your porn star. Don't treat me like that. But in my mind, I was like, yeah, right. So I just, I didn't want him to see me as.

Some woman that he could just take advantage of. Cause that's kind of how porn felt like to me. And I'll be honest, I haven't seen all the porn out there. So just the point that I had seen was it looked like women were basically just being taken advantage of by the men. And so I was just like, well, I don't, I don't want that to be how it is in our sexual lives.

I, I want to be equal. And I just was like, is he looking at me? Like, I'm like that. And that if I allow him to explore different things or do different things, then he has less respect for me because he's, he's holding me at the same level as what he sees on porn. So that was a worry that was always in my head of, Ooh, I don't know if we should be doing this.

at you can do in the bedroom [: 00:20:00

So if that's your standard, essentially. No sex is the reality and that's right because that's the thing that hasn't been done in porn is no sex So at some point we have to get to a place and I don't know where you are in that because you know We haven't really spoken about this. But how have how have things changed as brent has been able to Move away from regularly choosing porn to where you guys are now.

Well, in terms of sexuality, I have always struggled with this idea of wanting to own my own sexuality and what that should look like, because all growing up in the church, it felt like I should, I should be living above that. Like as almost as if sex was a bad thing, even though we were married. Sex was a lesson.

You're literally not the first person to say those very words to me. Yeah, so the whole time I'm like, this seems kind of unfair that I have to put so much thought and effort sometimes into sex for me to be aroused or for me because I look at him and if I just like throw my clothes off, he's like ready to go.

And for me, I'm like, he can walk out of the shower and I'm like, but I'm not ready to go. And so I'm like, that seems unfair. And I've told Brett often, I'm like, I would really like to sit down with God and be like, how come you made the women this way? This seems very unfair. Yeah. But I feel like it has more to do with the mental side.

There's so much mental that women have, especially in our religion, I feel. And I suppose even in the Christian religion where it's been suppressed, it's been taught to be suppressed so much that it felt like an evil thing inside me. If I even wanted, To think about that stuff, or if I got aroused from him touching me, or if I got aroused from a thought, then it was like, Oh, that's so evil.

And yet then I find out that women have way more sexual, um, nerve endings than men and women can orgasm longer and more times. And I'm like, Whoa, if that's the case. I've had it suppressed in my life all this time. I should, it should almost, and this is going to sound funny. It should have been flipped around.

It should have been the men that were like keeping us crazy women from being too sexual. If you look at it from a physical standpoint, because if you look at the fact that women should be more sexual, shouldn't we be the ones? Everybody's trying to control, but wait a minute. I think we, I think we have controlled you.

I mean, that's essentially the narrative, right? Like the narrative is, Hey, you have to control us. So you control yourselves. And we tell you this story. Uh, there is a component of that story that is, it is men controlling women through the idea that they are controlling men, which. You know, the reality is, we all have sexual capacity.

All of us. And women have a great deal of sexual capacity. And it sounds like you have gone through a lot of work to figure out, Well, how do I reassert and regain my sexual capacity, In light of what's going on in our marriage, and pushing on that nerve, And pushing forward in a position of growth. Right.

And that was, that was the journey for me. Cause it felt like, why, why physically am I made this way, but I've been taught to suppress it for so long. And so then it was this, okay, I need to relook at the programming in my mind of what I really think about sex and what I think about my own sexuality. And so then it was, What are the things that I believe?

And is that because it was doctrine or is that just culture in the church? Is that just how I was raised by my mom and my dad and more so my mom, because obviously girls are very affected by how their mom is in the marriage. And so, and my mom, I love her to death, but we didn't talk about this stuff ever.

And so, and, and her and my dad were not very, Physically touching all the time. I mean, they were, they were nice and gentle with each other and stuff like that, but it wasn't like they were. Constantly grabbing each other or laying on top of each other in front of us kids. That just wasn't like the norm.

ime. It just, that's what he [: 00:25:00

And that has been the journey that I've been on because I don't want to control him. I just want to control myself. Well, and I think that you've probably found out that you can't control him. Right. Yeah. It took me a few years beating my head against the wall, but I finally was like, yeah, this isn't working.

So why did you point Brent towards, towards what we were doing? When you saw, when you listened to, uh, to our interview with Jodi, who I love, she's a great woman. When you heard that, why did you point Brent towards what we were doing? Well, like I said, I've been looking into the coaching realm, right? And a lot of what is taught with coaching is a lot about thoughts and taking control of your thoughts and your actions.

And some of the things that I had heard And some of Jodi Moore's, um, podcasts I listened to and, and I have joined her, um, B Bowl program. Um, but then also listening to her interview with you guys, it just was like, you know, I don't know that this has ever been introduced to Brent this way. And, And from a guy, cause I don't know about you, but when I, when I look into, when I looked into coaching and becoming a coach, I was like one dude.

It was me. I mean, we went to Jody, Jody's B Bold Masters, and it was me and 50 women and a guy named Joey Mascio. That was it. So having a guy, having another guy explain what's going on from a guy perspective. And I know, you know, men and women are fairly similar in a lot of ways, but sometimes it just is helpful to have a dude say it from a guy's perspective that has actually gone through the process instead of.

You know, maybe the theoretical of, of someone who hasn't done it. Well, and I also, I, cause you had talked about coming on the other side of it and the work that you had done. And I was like, I've never, I've never heard of anybody in the church. Doing that. They say, Oh, I don't have that problem anymore, but they don't tell you about their journey.

They don't tell you what they did. They just say, Oh, I came, I got over it. And you're just like, how? Yeah. But they don't tell you. So when you explained to Jodi, kind of what you guys went through and some of that, I was like, that's exactly what we're going through. And you explained The mental work that you had gone through, the thoughts and the actions and how you had to start thinking differently.

I was like, that's the solution, but nobody had ever described it before. And I was like, this is what he needs to hear. And he does need to hear it from a man, not a woman. Agreed. Yeah. Come from a dude. And that's not to say that there aren't women coaches who can't do great work. I'm not saying that at all.

I just, I don't, I don't know. Yeah, go tell me. The difference though, because when a dude accepts the, the coaching, well, okay, so I, as a, as a guy accept the coaching better coming from a guy because you number one have been through it. So that's helpful. But the other thing too, is whenever it's coming from a female with respect to this, there's still so much shame and guilt involved that it almost feels like even if she's loving and kind and telling you, Hey, you know, this is.

I'd still feel like, yeah, she's still judging me. And she's still, you know, she's just doing this as a job and she's judging me because, you know, I can't keep it in my pants kind of a thing, which is just how I felt. Whether that's true or not. I think, I think you're describing what I think a lot of men feel.

Yeah. And that's why it's helpful, more helpful. And I don't, you know, so you run your own business. When you, when you're looking for business advice, On physical therapy, do you ever just like call up professors who've never been in business, who are like really good at the theory, like so good that they could teach it in college?

No, you never do that. You call up the other PTs in the area and you go, hey, what are you doing about this? You call up a trusted mentor, you call up somebody who has actually done it, made payroll, done the work, and I think that that's, I think that's a, an important distinction, because, and I think, I don't know about you guys, but when, you said you didn't go to therapists, but when we were trying to find therapists, we never found anybody.

I mean, we had, LDS Family Service is available to us in a variety of places that we live, but we never found anybody who was like, yeah, I know how this works. Let me show you. None of it. So it was, it's definitely a different ballgame. Was there any, was there anything that kept you, you know, as you went through, because you signed up for a consult, we met, was there anything that almost kept you from saying, okay, I'm going to go with Zach?

e was anything that was said [: 00:30:00

Yeah. It was the thing that you'd said, and I was like, what? How come I, not to porn? You are like, no, you're not addicted to porn at all, and do you do this? Do you do this? Do you this? You went through all the labels. I'm like, no, I don't. I can do, you know, I don't. He says, yeah, you're just using porn as a buffer to, because you, you feel bad and you want to feel good again.

That's it. That's what the problem is. It never went that direction. I've never gone that direction. And so I'm like, oh, so that was the impetus for me to like, okay, maybe this guy knows some stuff. So I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and do it. But the thing, so midway through what we were talking, I kind of fell off the wagon.

And what it was for me was, it wasn't so much anything that was said, it was more of a feeling of. Am I going to be okay? Or am I, am I going to be comfortable leaving this part of me behind? Am I, am I good with that? And there was a couple of months where I'm like, I don't know if I want to let go of this sin, because it does feel good.

And I don't know if I want to get good at feeling bad. Honestly, and I think that there's a lot of people out there that are like, I really don't like feeling bad and it kind of sucks and I am, I'm not willing to go down that road. So I fell off the bandwagon for about, I don't know, a month or two or three or something like that.

And I'm like, you know what, this is stupid. What's more important, me feeling good or, uh, or an eternal marriage that's, that's, that's, that lasts where we appreciate each other and where there's physicality, where there's intimacy, where there's. A family unit that's, that's better because their dad's not a meathead, only thinking about how he wants to feel good, you know, those kinds of things.

And so that flipped that switch. And then that, from that point on, it was like, okay, this is, this is a no brainer. We're going to, we're going to do this and I'll just learn how to feel bad or get good at feeling bad so that I can understand how to feel good. The right way. I think that's so amazing for you to be able to see and to admit, I wasn't sure if I wanted to leave this behind.

I know there are a lot of dudes out there. I know there are a lot of women out there who are viewed in pornography and this is their favorite sin. Not that they want it, want it, but it's the one that seems to help them the most in the moment. Right, and then you blame it on addiction, so then you don't have to worry about fixing it, because, well, I'm addicted, you know, and then comes your diagnosis, I'm addicted, and so you can't stop, and then it's so much easier to continue working in that direction.

And you're almost a victim. Yeah. When we're a victim, it's easier to just keep going as we are. Oh, yeah. And when you, when you finally go, wait, no, I'm actually choosing this. Do I really actually want to leave it behind? When you finally get to that position, you know you're not a victim anymore, right? You can't be a victim anymore.

And there's so many things that you find out about agency that you didn't know you knew before. You didn't know before, excuse me. Like, you know, we talk an awful lot with our kids now about agency and living that principle centered life, and it's all completely different from what we learned as, as, you know, when we were growing up, that this agency, yeah, you do choose.

You choose what you're going to do in that day. You choose what you're thinking that day. You choose how you're going to act that day. You're choosing constantly and you're judging constantly how to act, how to be, how to think, and those types of things. And now. You can't blame anything on an addiction just because you want to feel good.

Yeah, absolutely. Becky, did you see any of that change? Did you see any of that growth from where you were sitting? I did. The thing that, and it, I'll be honest, as the wife, it kind of made me a little uncomfortable too because it felt like Um, as much as I didn't want to control his behavior when it came to sex, I still had control.

, I was like, wait, I don't, [: 00:35:00

Like, I want you to be mad. I want you to want me. Yes, exactly. So that was kind of a weird thing. I was like, wait, I'm saying no and you're totally okay with it. Are, are, do you still love me? Like, you start having those thoughts like, wait a minute, is this, I don't know that this is what I thought it was going to be.

And so at first it was kind of hard. And there was, I think, I'll be honest, I think he had some expectations that like, as soon as he stopped, um, pushing it as, as soon as I said, Hey, if you don't want it, and I'm, I'm gonna be okay with that, it's gonna be like, great. 'cause I'm, I've totally changed it. And it, that's not the case.

No. It took some time. Took a minute. It does, took a long minute. Yeah. Like after a couple, a couple weeks, he's like, well, have you noticed any difference? And I'm like, no, honey, it's been two weeks. Yeah. No, I haven't, I haven't give some time. But, and, and I don't think it's just this idea of, if I want sex, I'm going to ask my wife and if she tells me no, I'm going to be totally okay with it, and all of a sudden everything's fixed.

Well, we had to change the way we asked, too. Right. You had mentioned Hmm. Zach that you'll say, well, do you want to make out or do you want to have sex? And she's just like, what am I, a prostitute? Don't ask me for that kind of stuff. And she says, I want you to tell me that you want me. Yeah. This is your wife telling you this.

Yeah. So my wife was saying, I want you to tell Becky saying, I want you to tell me that you want me. And then I have the choice of saying, well, you can't have me right now, kind of a thing. And, and that was hard. That was, that was really hard. Um, but it was worth it because it's just like, well, you know, I want you.

And she would say, well. Sorry, you're going to have to wait on that one. And then, then you have to be able to, as the man, which is, this is where men fail miserably is they become whiny little babies all the time. And then they start begging and pleading for sex. Right. And so it's such a turnoff. Yeah. And Becky's like, what are you, a 12 year old boy now?

Yeah. So you have to get to that point where you truly are okay, and you have to be able to self soothe. And for me it was, Becky doesn't want to have sex with me, but she still loves me. She loves me and she wants to be around me, and you, Brent, are okay. Go play. Go do something else. And I would. I would be like, okay.

But you wouldn't do it from a distract myself. It's from a. I'm okay. And now I'm going to go choose something that's, that aligns with my values. Well, first of all, it was a little bit more of a distraction. Yeah, probably. And then as you start to kind of learn, you can get to the point where you're like, I need still, I need to kiss her on the cheek and, and nibble on her ear.

And then I'll be like, okay, I'm going to go, I'll go do this. And I'm, and I was, I was just fine. I didn't have to go take a cold shower necessarily or any of those things. You just, you just learn how to self soothe. So I'm getting better at it. I'm not, Did that change, Becky, did that change your ability to see him as desirable?

Um. The non whiny part, probably. It's getting better. At first it was really hard. At first it was just like, oh my god. And for perspective, and I think a lot of women feel this way, when you're dating and right before you get married, especially in the LDS culture, I think, cause you're like, you're not supposed to have sex, right?

So you kind of, you know. And I would really like to find somebody out there who didn't have this problem, because I don't think it exists. I think as, as you're getting close to your marriage date, you are right at that boundary. Where you're like, we're not worthy to go through the temple anymore. So you're like, you come right up to that boundary all the time.

And I'm just like, why was it that we were so like, couldn't keep our hands off of each other. But then as soon as we got married and after kind of the honeymoon phase, that all went away. I'm like, what happened that all of a sudden now I'm just like, uh, and I think it was when you're dating, he is doing everything to help you see that he's into you.

at anymore. All right, we're [: 00:40:00

We don't say the D word because we're in this for the long haul. We're going, we're, we're married for eternity. And I literally, like we talked about that in the first part of our marriage, like, Oh, we're never going to get a divorce. But then I started thinking, wait a minute, if I tell him that, then he doesn't have to keep working for me.

He doesn't have to keep pursuing me. And so I got to the point where I was like, I could divorce your butt anytime. And he'd be like, whoa, wait, what? And I'm like, no, you have to continue to work for this. This is, I understand that, you know, divorce By the way, that's a two way street. And how can you choose a relationship that isn't that, right?

How can you have a choice if the only choice is to stay married no matter what? That's not, you can never choose that relationship because you don't have a choice to not choose it. It's not worth fighting for. And so I think when we're, Always like, I could divorce you. Like it wouldn't be fun and I would hate it.

Yeah. If it comes down to that, that's always the option on the table because you have to keep working for me and I have to keep working for you. We have to keep choosing this. And once we started talking like that, if he started acting kind of whiny about, oh, it's been so long since we had sex, I'd be like, well, you can go elsewhere.

And he'd be like, well, that's not exactly what I wanted. And I'm like, well then stop your whining. So We have an interesting relationship. And it sounds like you, Becky, you have learned that you have to step in and have to deal with your reactive desire. And I think most women are in a reactive desire position, which is, for anybody who hasn't heard that term before, it's, it's, I could, I could take it or leave it at any given moment, but if I want to do it, I have to get in the mind frame and choose to be there long enough to get the engine going.

I like to call it starting the 500 year old tractor. You gotta turn the knob and pull the lever and grease the wheels and all the things that you gotta do to get that tractor started. But once it starts, it, it runs great. Right, right. , but it sounds like you, you had to step into that. So Brent, what has.

What have you been able to achieve through coaching? Um, there's been a lot of things I think I've been able to achieve. Number one is it's, is it's, it's up to me. It's the understanding of agency, what agency truly is and what it is not. Um, the, the coaching has helped me to understand that I'm in control.

And the idea of saying, I can't do something, or I can't look at porn, or I can't, um, do this or that is, is, Is a fallacy because I can't, I can do any one of those things through the use of my agency. Um, and it just so happens that my, I want to use my agency to actively choose to not do certain things. Or to choose to do certain things.

So that was very helpful. Uh, the other thing was a lot of the mindfulness work. So we were, she's a list. She was listening to Jody Moore and Jennifer Finlayson Fife, and she was telling me some things and I was listening, uh, you know, I was talking with you and we were both listening to some stuff from Brooke Castillo.

And, and just the idea of. Being able to change who you are comes from within you. And so you have to think about the things that you want to become, and you have to, um, be disciplined enough to override the demotivation that you would feel. So when it comes to, you know, feeling bad, feeling bad is a demotivating feeling.

It doesn't. You know, it doesn't push you to become something better. A negative feeling doesn't, doesn't incite you to grow. It doesn't incite you necessarily. Sometimes fear can, and sometimes, and a lot of times fear can, but like a negative feeling, like I suck. That kind of a feeling doesn't incite you to grow.

n things every day to become [: 00:45:00

Even when I'm not motivated and that's what discipline is. Is it in spite of motivation, you do it has nothing to do with motivation. You do it because you are disciplined, which is interesting because discipline is a offshoot of disciple, you know, you just, you do the thing, you do the thing because it's right.

You do the thing because it helps you. You do the thing because it makes you a better person. The reward will come or it won't, but you're doing it because it's the right thing to do. And that's where I'm trying to focus now. So that's what it kind of helped me to figure out in my life in a nutshell.

Becky, have you seen anything on your side as, as you've thought about it? What has, what have you been able to achieve because of the work that Brad's doing? And that you're doing. Well, yeah, it's also, um, It's put more, uh,

like it's opened the door for me to explore my own sexuality. And I'm not so focused on controlling him. I'm more focused on what is it that I actually like? What is it that I want from him? And that's not just, you know, when we have sex, but it's also how do I want him to talk to me? How do I want him to treat me?

How do I want him To be around me in front of our kids, um, what is okay. And what's not okay. And what turns me on and what turns me off. And for so long, I think because I was controlling him for so long, I was never ever really able to explore that for myself. And so it's kind of opened that door for me to be more like.

What is it exactly that I want? And, um, and to realize that

sexuality, that especially for a woman is not a bad thing. And like, um, I always kind of go back to that story. Is it Ruth? I think it's the story of Ruth who goes to the King when he could have been, Oh, Esther, sorry. She goes to the King and she could have been killed. But I kind of, I'm like, I think that she didn't just approach him and he.

I think she used her sexuality, and that's never discussed. It's not like we're sitting in Relief Society and talking about how Esther used her sexuality with the king. There certainly was a reason why he was willing to let her approach. Right, but we don't talk about it like that. We don't say, Oh, it was because she used her sexuality.

If you said that in church meeting, they would be like, I, I just really struggle with that. I, I don't think that's why the King allowed Esther to talk. That 85 year old woman. Right. And I'm just like, you're cool in the back. Yeah, the king picked Esther because of how she looked. He knew nothing about her, so why would he choose Esther?

She must have been incredibly good looking, she must have had some sexuality about her, and she owned it. And by the way, she was probably wearing all the clothes, too, so it didn't have anything to do with what she was wearing. Exactly! There was, there was one time Brent had a patient, and she's from Spain, We were talking kind of about this feminist movement, especially here in the States.

And she was like, you know, you women have kind of ruined it for yourselves here in the States. North American women. Yeah. And I was like, well, what do you mean by that? And she goes, you know, in Spain, as a woman, you are taught that the man might be the head of the house. But you are the neck and you get to choose where that head turns all times.

And I was like, well, how do you do that? And she goes, how do you think as a woman, we would do that? She goes, we use this because that's the only thing that controls a man. And I looked at her and I was like, holy cow. I wish I was raised in Spain because that was not how we are raised here in the States, because we're told we should be able to do things without using our body and without controlling men.

about too, is she said that [: 00:50:00

It doesn't mean that you're wearing little to nothing. She says you're wearing, you're fully clothed. Yeah. But the way you hold your poise. And the way you appear to the man and the way you have that certain sense of confidence and that air about you, that's what can control. That's what helps to work that man's face to look this direction or that direction.

Right? So it wasn't, now the North American women are all, well, we want to, we, we look for equality, right? But it's not, but it's not the same thing, you know, yeah. Instead of equity. And I think equity is, Women have certain capacities and men have certain capacities and how you choose to use those creates equity.

Now not every woman is going to be able to do everything a man can do and vice versa. That's just the reality of life. So, you know, just being aware of that and being able to hold that space and hold that position for yourself. Sounds like it gives you so much more empowerment to be the person that you That you want to be within your relationship.

Right. Right. Um, what, what would you say to somebody who's looking at coaching? Who, who is in the position you were in, what, eight months ago, nine months ago now? What would you say to somebody?

I think the thing that, that makes most people hesitate. Probably is the fact that, uh, frankly, it's probably the money. And, and what's funny about it is I work as a physical therapist and people will spend, they'll spend 800, 2, 000 to 2, 000 on rims and tires for their vehicle, but they won't spend 40 for a deductible for their own health.

Which that's, that's pretty sad. And when it taught, when you talk about receiving information and getting your mind set to change to where your, to where your marriage is improved, to where intimacy with your wife has improved, to your feelings of guilt and shame are mostly gone or gone, um, all of those things go away.

All of that negative stuff that you were feeling that goes away. And it just costs you a couple thousand dollars. Is that really, is that really your sticking point is the money? And that's what, that's what really kind of strikes me as odd. People will spend all kinds of money to look good, but they won't spend a whole lot of the money to actually become good.

And that's a, that's a harsh reality. And I think people need to take a good hard look at who they are. And, uh, you know, these men specifically, I'm sure women as well, but take a good hard look at who you are and then take a really hard look at where you want to be. And then you need to make some decisions about how to get there.

Thank you. And, and I have money was not the factor for us. It was not the factor. We make enough to where we can do this. That was not the factor. The factor was my inability to want to let go. So that would be the second thing. Once you get money concern, you got to get past the let go of this issue. This is, this is my take on that.

Cause I think you're not wrong. People see the cost of almost anything and they go, well, do I want that? But anything we value, we will pay for. And I think more people come to me. There's really only three objections. Can I do this? Can he teach me? And are these materials? The right materials. Those are really the only three objections.

Because money falls into the, can I do this? It's the bat, it's the, it's the thing I tell you up front, so I can stay in a position of not really figuring out whether or not I can do this. Not really knowing whether or not I can let go of it. Like you, like you said for your position, right? Becky, what would you tell somebody who's, you know, the wife is sitting there and saying, okay, what would you say?

Well, I think, um, if I were to be talking to the other wives, I would say don't think that if your husband or even, I mean, even if you're a female who is struggling with pornography and your husband, I would say to the spouse who's not addicted or not struggling with it, don't think that you're off scotch free, that it's just their problem that they have to work through because it affects your marriage.

ng. And you're going to find [: 00:55:00

But the greatest thing that I saw was that he had hope. And that for me, it was like, finally, he's found something that he believes this is going to work for me. And it was so devastating every time he came home from talking to a bishop that he just was like, I don't know how I'm going to do this.

Whereas he'd get off the phone with you. And he, I was like, I could see the hope in his eyes. Like I am moving in a direction that is taking me away from this. I can actually fill it and see it. I have hope. And so that was big for me. It was also this idea of, I, I just wanted a marriage. That I felt like we were already headed in the right direction.

Before the other side, I think sometimes we get in this, this mind frame of, well, we're married for eternity. And I just have to put up with all of the crap in our marriage until we get to the other side, and then somehow we're going to figure it out. And then we'll be great for eternity. And I think in my mind, I'm like, why are we waiting until then?

I'd really like to experience a really great marriage right now. And not only just for us, but I want our kids to understand what that looks like. So that when they're choosing a mate. They're conscientious of what their role is and what they should be looking for in a mate and that anything that comes up in a marriage, it can be worked on, it can be figured out.

And it's not this, well, he wasn't doing this for me or she wasn't doing this for me, so let's just get a divorce. But at the same time, understanding we have to continue to work at this. And that's, there's not a price. For that, for me, I, I feel like we are closer now than we've ever been in our marriage.

And, um, and intimately it's not just the sex intimately, we are closer to each other in terms of how we feel about things, how we feel about our kids, the way we talk about money with each other, the way we talk about business, um, just being willing to be vulnerable with each other. I think that was a huge thing in our marriages.

Because we were always trying to control things, we weren't willing to be vulnerable. And now it's like, I don't get to control him anymore. So that actually does put me in a vulnerable position. And so I have to allow that I have to be willing to be vulnerable. And when I realized that I can be vulnerable and he still wants me, that's kind of super sexy.

So So, am I to take it that, uh, that this was, this was a success for you? That this has helped create, start to create and start to build that marriage that you've always wanted, that you wanted before you had to get to the other side? For sure. Absolutely. And that's not to say that the journey's over.

Yeah. You're not perfect yet. Right. Really, really close though. Yeah. You more sessions. Yeah, no, it's, it has created, it has created a lot of hope and it has created a lot of, of desire to want to improve. And it has created an, an opportunity for me to be vulnerable as a man. You're not really taught to be vulnerable.

And so now you can go, I can go and I can, you know, I can talk to men about certain things and I can be like, this is, this is what I had, this is what I have dealt with. And then 9 times out of 10, they're like, oh, you too? Yeah, there's a way and it doesn't have to be pain. It doesn't have to be as grueling and arduous as you might think.

And so it's, it's been, uh, it's been nice to be able to just let. That stigma go as well. So then the, the guilt and the shame portion of it that just goes away with it. And it's like, yeah, this is what I've done. And so have 80 percent of you that are in this congregation, probably. So we can fix this. We can fix this together.

will. I love it. I love it. [: 01:00:00

We want the reality of life to be that no marriage is ever perfect. Destroyed by pornography ever again. We don't think that that that's a pipe dream. We think that's, that's a real possibility and a real, uh, really something that we can all work towards. And it sounds like not, not just have you put pornography behind you in a meaningful way, but you are really creating a wonderful and enjoyable marriage where you each choose each other from a position of freedom.

And I love that. I really love it. Well, I would also add too, The work that he has done with you and having those conversations and then him and I having conversations, it builds a framework of how you approach everything. It's not just the porn. It builds a framework with how you deal with money, how you deal with raising your kids, how you deal with your in laws, how you deal with people in the church or church callings.

It builds a framework of how to think about things. And that's, that's huge. Yeah, that you're exactly right. This, this is not solving one problem. It's, it's creating a place. A framework so that you can solve many, many problems. And I, that's why I like this work. But, uh, thank you guys so much for coming on.

I greatly appreciate it. And, uh, and, and if, uh, if anybody wants to sign up for a free consult, feel free to go to zachspafford. com slash workwithzach. All right, you guys have a great week and we'll see you next week.